Category: News and Views
I'm so fucking happy right now. fred Phelps,, longtime leader of the Westboro Craptist Church, is dead at 84. Good fucking riddence!
Ok... :O
So which would be worse?
For him to be in the Hell of his despot deity, or the Heaven of some other's deity, where gays and other disliked groups like maybe polys were also admitted?
Either place is too good for that sorry excuse of a man.
Ok, he's dead. Yes. but his in-bred descendents are still here, they still make up the craptist church, and they're still causing trouble and disgusting people... and they'll keep reproducing because they don't believe in birth control. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh!!! Someone shoot me now. lol.
Maybe to be reincarnated as a transexual who, once he/she goes through the procedure, also discovers he/she is attracted to his/her own gender. I've heard of this happening.
Phelps, I say no afterlife at all, just nonexistence, to not even be thought of by any being, earthly or unearthly, to be that certain sort of alone that is the ultimate aloneness, that is what he gets.
I'm afraid bernadetta is even more right than she knows. Fred phelps was ex-
communicated from the westboro baptists last year. So even though he's dead,
their church hasn't actually lost a member or a leader or anything. Its still the
same as it has been since august of last year.
Oh yeah? Why was he excommunicated, might I ask?
Power struggle.
Too bad. I was hoping he got caught trying to proposition a 20-year-old guy or something.
Come to grampy Fred, let me bless you with my wrinkled relic.
lol. impy. that was as disgusting as it was hilarious. lol.
We don't really know why he was excommunicated. They're not exactly
forthcoming with information. However, he wasn't thrown out like Nate or
Megan, his son and granddaughter, among other family members, who are now
not even allowed to speak with members of the church. So one thinks it might
have been the fact that he was over eighty.
Wrinkled relic! EEEWWW! But funny.
So instead of starting a new topic for this, I wanted to present something here:
Fred Phelps for one and all personifies the preposterous nature of the Christian heaven and the Christian Hell.
According to fundamentalist Christian thinking, he is in heaven. He no doubt said the sinner's prayer, remained faithful until the end, and never wavered in his dedication to Christ. He was uncompromising in his upholding of their beliefs. His activities weren't a sin. Hatred isn't a sin in the Bible, and even the most fluffbunny among us hates someone or something. Nothing he did in these nefarious activities was a sin, according to their teachings.
Now let's look at someone else: Matthew Shepherd, a young, gay, confused man. I say confused because most young people are confused, most oppressed people are dealt a megadose of confusion and doublethink as part of their oppression. He was brutally beaten to death by some thugs. According to fundamentalist Christianity, he is in hell, as well might I be for having penned this. He was gay, a big no-no. Let's presume he didn't convert to Christianity, at least not in the way the fundamentalists dictate conversion.
While the Fundamentalists will denounce his "behavior," they have a rather different response to the Westboro Baptists. They say they don't approve of the methods the Westboro Baptists use.
So, they don't mind the teaching or doctrines, it's all in the delivery system used. So you don't mind cyanide gas being distributed, but disapprove of using explosive shells to do it, and would rather we use a sprinkler.
Does this make any sense to anybody?
We have an elderly man who held on to some teachings in an uncompromising fashion. Maybe did so in a way that his peers might not approve of, the delivery system, but did so nonetheless. And we have a young man who is beaten to death for being gay. The first, eternally saved. The second, eternally damned. In fact they have gone to great lengths to describe what this damnation looks like: molten lava and fire, all the while miraculously keeping the condemned not only alive and conscious, but the nerve endings intact enough to continuously suffer. One of their chief architects, Jonathan Edwards, goes into great lengths on this, in his "Sinners in the Hands Of An Angry God."
The most Christianity has to say in criticism of the Phelps case is that his delivery was wrong.
Now consider how the U.S. military responded to Abu Ghraib. I don't mean your cover-up conspiracy theories, I mean actually responded. General Patraeus, I believe it was, is the one who said we would be judged by this, because the strength of character of a nation can be found in how it punishes its enemies. Even people in the north during the Civil war decried the brutal methods used by Sherman as he burned his way across the American south. Again, because it exemplified extreme cruelty and lack of character to do so. Again a modern example: Guantanamo Bay. Why do Americans want it shut down? Do we think everyone in there are nice guys? No, I've known people who were somewhat close to the source on this, and those people are *not* "nice guys." But people of all persuasions want us to humanely handle this situation because of what it says about us. We are dishonored and dishonorable because of how we treat our enemies.
Even the death penalty: Do you know who is responsible for the more humane methods of execution? If you said green peace, the new agers, or the Left, you would be wildly wrong. Many of those find a more humane method of execution to mask what they feel are ethical problems with it. The people who have championed for better methods most often are people who want justice.
So, the Fundamentalists' deity? What sort of character does this imply when we're talking a miraculous ability to keep eople alive under extreme conditions, all for the purpose of continually torturing them? Their deity cannot possibly be just or honorable. You will never see the Fundamentalists address this: their apologetics and speakers are so weak as to only address the fluffbunny crowd, and never tackle this, except to provide some cop-out. Because there is no excuse.
Cody's right, Phelps is not an enigma. Understandably, many Christians were indignant at the Westboro protests at military funerals. Fortunately for people in the military, to be Christian in America is to be pro military. That is a given. So I may be wrong: it may be a sin for him to have protested military funerals.
But you will see them criticize my writing style before you ever see them come back with answers. Because to do the former is easier, and there are of course plenty of ways for them to do that. I am no Bernadetta when it comes to putting thoughts to paper.
That's not all. Phelps was a wife and child beater. Read the online article Addicted to Hate and you'll see. If you have a strong stomach.
All I can say is if ol' Freddie ended p in hell for lis life of biggotry and hate I'd love to see his reaction. One is reminded o a carton that ran in the Onion not long after the September 11attacks. It was a headline that said terrorists shocked tofind themselves in hell. "We thought we would get eternal paradise for this!" And if b chance he should end p in heaven that just reaffirms why I refuse to worship the Christian god.
I do remember that Onion headline and laughed also.
Yeah. My sister read that one to me.
I dunno if I told this story before on some other post, but back when I was 21, I went to the Carroll Center in Massachusetts for a week of introductory computer learning. This was back when computers still had those 5-1/4-inch diskettes; you know the ones with two sides like an old 33-RPM record? Anyway, I had the unique pleasure of rooming with a guy who tried to convert me to his idea of Christianity. His Christ, by the way, sounds like a real prick, because I brought up the idea of someone dying in the holocaust and burning for all eternity because he was a Jew who didn’t believe Christ was the true messiah. I also brought up hundreds of millions of Native Americans who didn’t even know about Christ till the white man came and, with his infinite mercy, infected them with smallpox, measles and war in an attempt to convert them to the only true faith. “So, you say all of them are going to hell?” “Wel, that’s what we believe” was his only reply. Same with Hindus, Buddhists and whatnot who never heard of Christ till Europeans invaded Asia at around, say, between 1400 and 1500 or so? All of them will perish forever. Aboriginal Australians? Yes. Polynesians who never heard of Christ till the 18th century? Yeppers, they’re goners too. And they’ll burn next to Hitler, who perpetrated the holocaust and killed the Jews who didn’t accept Christ as their true messiah. How’s that for infinite mercy? Don’t you just love the balancing of the equities going on here? Funny thing is he was a little insane, as it turned out, because he threatened to kill himself a couple of days after we had that conversation. Wonder what that was all about?
And here’s the thing: When you stop and think about it, there’s no infinite crime or sin. When you kill someone, you can only do it once; you can’t keep killing them over and over again for all eternity. When you commit any act of adultery, it goes on for however long it does, and then it’s over. You don’t fuck someone for all eternity, although I’ve had fantasies about that. Never mind. Anyhow, burning in hell for all of eternity for something you did that only lasts for a finite amount of time makes no sense. If you’re gay, you’re only gay till your life ends, not for billions of years. If you had the unmitigated gall to be born a Jew, you’re only a Jew till you die, not for trillions of quadrillions of centuries. See, this is why, if there’s some metaphysical justice, afterlife or whatever, reincarnation makes more sense. The whole balancing of the universe thing? If you’re a shit in this life, maybe you’re gunna pay for it in the next incarnation you have. I dunno, because in the end it’s all theory. Maybe ol’ Freddy will be born gay and hang himself at 15 because his peers will torment him into offing himself. Or he’s supposed to learn compassion for what it’s like to be one of us in a world that often doesn’t accept us. But no, this Christofascist world view is wacked.
I agree with the last post. But here has always been my philosophical problem with reincarnation, leaving alone the physical impossibilities most non-nerds can overcome in their thinking.
If people are to reincarnate into this life as a lesson, then things that happen to them are retroactive payment, their fault as it were. I have known a few new age types who really believed this, and said things like a rape victim could have been a rapist in her past life. Ignoring the physical possibilities here, I just can't stomach that form of thought. Pre-Euro-invaded India, and the Untouchables, tells you all you need to know about reincarnation as a world view.
Or the Japanese feudal system, where peasants were born peasants because maybe they were bad samurai in their past life.
I can't do it any more than I can do Christianity's burn-billions-for-eternity mockery of justice. I hate putting the word justice in the same sentence as either of those two philosophies.
Hitler was a christian.
True, he had his regime uphold the Christian churches, at least those who would go along with his politics.
Sound familiar to any Americans on this site?
So he might be forgiven and in heaven, while the Jewish prisoners are in hell.
Worse yet, some, certainly not all, would justify his actions as promoting the Cause of Christ, in that many Jews in the camps might 'get saved' due to their terrible conditions. The thinking goes, they turn to Jesus after they 'hit bottom' Not a common post-world-war-II viewpoint for the Jewish population now. After all, Hitler lost the war and his life. But it's been repeated with other groups since.
Does this kind of thinking make any sense at all to anybody?
Getting back on topic, has anyone read Addicted to Hate yet?
From everything I’ve read about Hitler, he mouthed Christianity, proclaiming he’d always been a Catholic, but I think that was pretty much for show. In other words, he professed to be a Christian, but I think ultimately he disparaged religion in general. And Leo, I can see your thing about reincarnation. I’m not quite so sure the reality works the same way, though I’m not sure Christianity is supposed to really work in the manner that the Christofascists would have it. Like I said, I have a friend who I think really tries to practice Christianity probably the way Christ might have wanted him to so do, and when I came out to him, he was extremely accepting. He believes homosexuality is no sin. So, that’s a long way from what the Christofascists do. I don’t profess to be a Christian, but I think it’s a long way from what Christ would’ve had it. Maybe that’s off topic though.
Interesting views here.
I can respect those Christians who are able to respect those of differing beliefs and lifestyles without trying at every turn to convert them. It's folks who try to foist their beliefs on me that ted to get ripped a new one, and of course folks like the Westborough Bastards as well who think their god hates everything.
Anyone who would wonder at why I could no longer reconcile Christianity in any form, note just how many Christians of the Fundamentalist persuasion have answers for what I posed in Post 16.
Note, I'm not blaming Christians for my own exodus (interesting word there considering , ahem, an international grou).
I am not blaming them, because they cannot reconcile it either. But the fact that none has posted a rebuttal to it demonstrates a lot. And this site is largely full of Christians. Some of whom know full well I am no debater and will not throw anyone under the bus.
The paradoxes in Post 16 cannot be answered, it seems, because there is no answer.
Meanwhile, imagine a heaven with Fred Phelps falling at the Throne of God saying "holy Holy Holy" every few minutes, as is portrayed by the avatar description in Revelation. And a hell where people who genuinely lived out their lives as honest, hardworking, flawed, caring people. All because they did not name the name of Christ in the way the Fundamentalist Bible says to do so, or could never truly reconcile the differences even if at one time they tried to make themselves believe. (make believe)
Well said. Besides I could never swallow the notion that there were men who, whether at the sufferance of god or whatever, lived to be 200 years old or more in the case of people like Mothusula who supposedly lived for almost a thousand years. I could also never accept the notionof the Original Sin, that all of us even thousands of years later still being punished for something that two specific people did.
I've read it, and I don't think Phelps was a Christian. The church was a way to avoid paying taxes, and the religion a way to control his family.
Which is why I almost feel we should eliminate tax exempt status for churches. I bet we could eliminate a goodly chunk of this country's debt even if not eliminate it entirely.
So: I'm standing up now loud if not proud, to say it. I was wrong, I was clearly wrong.
Last year when Fred Phelps died, I predicted the end of this tiny hovel of a group. I could not have been more wrong: They're still out protesting. Recently came to Portland to protest the Gay Christian Alliance and then go after several Evangelical churches. Yes, Evangelicals! Their protests against the
Evangelicals is based upon the neo-Calvinist viewpoint that God does not love everyone equally. Many Evangelicals believe that anyone can "be saved" provided they beat the statistical odds and believe in the correct iteration of Jesus / the correct iterations of dogmas.
Ironically, I agree with the Westboro types on one point: it's impossible to love everybody equally. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day, so I guess the WBC crowd has struck once.
But I was wrong, I thought the death of Phelps would cause the disintegration of this little group. Apparently not.
.
I'm a Christian, and "Christians" that I've met can be very judgmental. Even a member of my family who said 2 children is too much for blind parents. I've left churches, because they had clicks and didn't care much to see returning or new members. They put the people in wheelchairs, including me, in one little pew, so we could get along like happy people.
There's problems in church. But, I love the God of that church. I can forgive the mean people. I'm not perfectly nice all of the time. I probably have more shortcomings than most people. But, it's up to me to improve myself, and to ask for Guidance.
What I'm trying to say, is that Christians make mistakes. But, I have learned not to blame "Every Christian," for those that are way off, like Felps and that place. I don't even like calling it a church. I think they forgot where Jesus says something like about murder being wrong. But, even calling your neighbor a "FOOL..."
I can't remember the verse. But, I'll look for it. A lot of people who take any faith say they don't judge, only you find out five minutes later, you're suddenly "not normal," by their standards. Anyone should know that's the biggest show of judgment I know of.
I don't know if anyone knows this, but there's a lot of people that call themselves preachers, that I could never agree with. Anyway, I can't think of much more. I wish I could remember things, but at least, I know what's not right.
Blessings,
Sarah/HW